Sunday, September 03, 2006

Wilma wrote back...

... and had a few more things to say. [Here's Wilma in bold, me in regular font:]

Just so you know Kathleen I am a cradle Catholic-- Catholic school, nuns, confirmation, the whole nine yards. I also spent many years in the Unitarian-Universalist Association. However I am now a born again Christian, and in learning God's Word have been blessed to know Jesus Christ as my Savior. I have interacted with Catholics for over four years now, oftentimes for several hours a day, online. I can define Transubstantiation unlike a high percentage of Catholics in the pews. {Why do you assume I am a Calvinist?}

These are interesting facts to know about you - thanks for sharing that. Believe it or not, I’m genuinely glad that you found Jesus and are trying to follow Him, and that you’re trying to live by your understanding of the Bible. Of course, I’m dismayed that you didn’t find Him in your experience of the Catholic Church growing up; I assure you, I recognize that you’re not alone. I will definitely concede the point that catechesis (at least since the 1970s or so) in American Catholic churches has been extremely poor as far as connecting Catholics with the faith of our fathers. Others have deconstructed this much more thoroughly than I, but in my view, the ham-fisted way in which the reforms of Vatican II were implemented in this country, the growing wedge of distrust between the American hierarchy and the official magisterium (i.e., the teaching office of the Church) begun by the American bishops’ refusal to enforce the directives of Humanae Vitae (prohibiting artificial birth control – published in 1968), and the “sexual revolution” and general social upheaval of the late ‘60s and into the ‘70s all combined to create a “perfect storm” of sorts – in which many priests, nuns, catechists, and laypeople have been caught up. I don’t deny that many American Catholics don’t know Jesus and don’t live their faith. I contend, however, that this is due to their rebellion against the true teachings of the Church as promulgated by the magisterium and not to their embrace of it.

”[T]he redemption and transformation of matter/the material world into the Kingdom of God began with the Incarnation." Uh dear, did you ever read the first line in the Bible?

Yes, as a matter of fact: “In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth…” (Gen. 1:1) It’s a good bet that the Apostle John was also familiar with this verse when he wrote: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (John 1:1). In his manner of writing the Gospel, which was of course inspired by the Holy Spirit, John was drawing a direct analogy between the Creation and the Incarnation, casting the latter as the Re-Creation, if you will. Christ is the Beginning, the first fruits (Col. 1:15-20) of redemption from the Fall; all the rest of creation’s redemption follows as He remakes it (Rev. 21:5).

"This means also that matter, e.g. our mortal bodies, can be infused with grace – which they are in the sacraments." Oh really? and pray tell, just WHERE does the bible teach that we are INFUSED with anything other than sin?

In the place where it says that “the one who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also, through his Spirit that dwells in you.” (Rom 8:11). See also my previous reference to I Cor. 15:42-44. Also, back in Genesis, when humankind (i.e. Adam) was created, it says that God “blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being.” (Gen. 2:7) I remind you that Catholic teaching holds that though Adam’s sin brought death into the world, the promise of redemption was given even before Adam and Eve were expelled from Eden (Gen. 3:15), and though the image of God in man was marred or wounded, it was not destroyed.

Here’s paragraph #398 from the Catechism: “In [Adam’s] sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully ‘divinized’ by God in glory. [emphasis mine] Seduced by the devil, he wanted to ‘be like God’, but ‘without God, before God, and not in accordance with God’”.

Further into the Catechism’s discussion of original sin, mention is made of the Protestant reformers’ error of identifying original sin with concupiscence (our continuing tendency towards sin). This conflation of the two concepts, and the resulting idea of mankind as totally depraved, is an integral part of both Luther’s and Calvin’s theology, and since your line of thought seems to derive from that, I thought you were a Calvinist. Sorry if I was mistaken.

"This causes Catholics to honor (I say honor, not worship) those material things which we see as windows into the Beyond, into the heart of God – including the Eucharist, icons of various kinds, and relics of deceased saints." So you mean when 3 million people line up in the pouring cold rain, to walk by a bunch of dried up bones, and shriveled up organs, this is just for "honor"? How about insanity? Why would your saints themselves want attention paid to their dead body parts, rather then to God if they are truly saints? --by the way there's a reason Catholic churches instead of Fellowship Baptist are chosen as the backdrop for your loved horror movies.

I’ll take your comments in reverse order: 3) Yes, I’ve also noticed the fascination with the Catholic Church in horror films as well as other genres of books, cinema, and television. The reason is that the Catholic Church looms quite large in the Western imagination – it’s the most “churchy” thing out there. 2) The saints want all of us to see and worship God, which is why they strove to live exemplary lives, which is why we remember and honor them. Don’t you have a picture of your grandmother anywhere? Don’t you have something that she owned or wore? Isn’t it special to you because she’s your family – you love her, and you see this material thing as a connection to her memory and an encouragement in the blessing she was in your life? That’s the core of it, really. 1) I’ve done the best I can to be patient and responsive to your concerns, Wilma. I apologize for repeating the name they used for you over on Amy’s blog. That said, one more crack about “insanity” and I will permanently ban you. This is my blog, and you are a guest here.

“Truthfully, I don’t know how the whole body parts thing got started; I think it had to do with the fact that during the first 300 years of Christianity, coming across a Christian’s dead body wasn’t all that rare an occurrence, and St. Augustine and other early Christians speak of miracles connected with being the presence of saints’ bodies or tombs." So you don't know but you honor it anyway? Shall I teach you a thing or two about Necromancy?

I don’t wish to know anything about necromancy, thanks. But check out what happened when some folks tossed someone’s dead body into the prophet Elisha’s fresh grave (II Kings 13:20-21). God can and does do miracles with whatever He chooses. The early Christians attest to the miracles mentioned above. Your quarrel is with them, not with me.

"Not to belabor the point, but contact, interaction, and dialogue with other religions does not constitute endorsement, acceptance, or “embracing” everything in those other religions. Catholic teaching holds that other religions may have some limited grasp on spiritual truth, and we dialogue with them in hopes of reinforcing whatever truth they have." 2Cr 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

The apostles did not have "rap" sessions about Baal, Isis, and Molech. Neither did they hold world-wide prayer sessions for all the pagans to go offer their sacrifices {Right from the Vatican website one can view some Vooduns offering their liquor libations to the "spirits" at Assisi}. They preached the true gospel, not the antichrist universalist "cosmic christ gospel" where as your last Pope stated..."Jesus" is found via false religions.

Here is what he said: “It will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour". (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue-Congregation for The Evangelization of Peoples, Instruction Dialogue and Proclamation, 19 May 1991 n29; L’Ossertavore Romano English Edition, 1 July 1991, p.III)

Your last Pope {as well as the present one} must have missed these verses. Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. 2Cr 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].

So your religious "dialogue", is NOT Biblical. All of the above would make your favorite wannabe Buddhist man Merton anything but a would be Saint.

In your interpretation of II Cor. 6:15, you are assuming that “Belial” and “the infidel” is synonymous with every single person, culture, and artifact on the planet that does not worship God, pray, and read the Bible exactly as you do. Catholics do not interpret this passage this way. Again, because of our view that the Fall did not destroy, but rather wounded, the image of God in humankind, there are some things in human cultures that are simply human, that retain some salvageable goodness, and they’re not all automatically consigned to the realm of the satanic. Consider: Q: Is a baseball game good or evil? A: It depends on the way the players play the game. Sometimes heroic sacrifices are made; sometimes people cheat. It’s the players’ individual moral choices, based on their conscience, that determine the character of the game. Not all pagan cultural artifacts and practices, including those having to do with religion, are inherently demonic; rather a lot of pagan and non-Christian religious practices are simply human efforts to reach the Truth, the Divine, with varying (but inadequate) degrees of success. Works, if you will, apart from grace.

So, here’s the thing: I completely agree with the quotation above from the Pontifical Council – that’s what I believe. However, I do not believe that this contradicts the Bible verses you quoted below it. God’s mercy is wider than our vision of it; if He wants to reach out and save some suffering native in Uganda that’s never heard the Gospel of Christ, it’s within His prerogative to do so. (See Romans 9:14-16.) Also, the Bible says that one’s actions, based on the witness of one’s conscience, will either accuse or excuse a person on Judgment Day – whether or not that person has ever heard the Gospel (Romans 2:9-16). This is the key, though: If anyone is saved, it’s Jesus Christ that saves them. (Acts 4:12 - yes, absolutely.) If anyone receives mercy at the hand of God in the midst of their ignorance, it’s because Jesus’ death and resurrection made it possible.

And, the Apostle Paul did in fact dialogue with the philosophers on Mars Hill in a culturally relevant way, even quoting their own poets, in order to help them grasp the fullness of the truth in Christ (Acts 17:21-34).

"Regarding the Assisi gatherings to pray for peace – come now, would you prefer that humans not ask whatever Higher Power they believe in for help in achieving peace on earth? Would you prefer that we give up hope for a peaceful coexistence between different religions and cultures, and return to blowing each other up to the last man standing? Unless you can grasp the meaning of the difference between religious dialogue and syncretism, based on what I've already said, it won’t do much good for me to continue to try to explain it."
I don't care about the line between religious dialogue and syncretism which in Catholicism seems to move every year, but the line set forth by God's command which is this.. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. So when Rome has prayer sessions for peace with Vooduns, Shintoists, Jainists, Buddhists, Islamics, and right on the Vatican website, pretty much state they are all praying to the same "God"---in that horrid Lucis Trustesque prayer, your church has flunked Christianity 101, and has broken the first commandment! I can find an example of this, EVERY WEEK, where someone like the Dalai Lama who definitely preaches "another gospel" and is "antichrist" by all scriptural tests-- who directly denies Jesus Christ is invited in and lauded by the Catholic clergy right in their cathedrals.

Again and again, we see the Roman Catholic church praising and lauding other religions from Cardinals praying to Allah, praising Buddha's teachings and lighting incense to Ganesha {I can prove all this happened} and Catholics in the pews being led more and more into universalism. What has happened at Georgetown is par for the course, they are not just wayward "disobedient" liberals. They are following the examples from the TOP. 2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers. Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them...


As I read through this, I’m more and more convinced it won’t do much good for me to continue trying to explain how Catholicism sees itself in relation to other world religions. I will say the following, however:

1) The yardstick for measuring Truth is held firmly in the Church’s own hand. She does not accept other’s views as to what is good at face value, but judges by her own standards. You are quite wrong to say that the Catholic Church "flunks Christianity 101" and "breaks the first commendment" - since the Catholic Church decides what constitutes the Christian faith and is not measured by any standard except the teaching of the Apostles, received from Christ Himself.

2) Though they hold a much different view of His character, Muslims do (or attempt to) worship the One God, that Person of the Trinity revealed to Jews as Yahweh and to Christians as God the Father. Since Islam is a monotheistic religion, they have grasped the truth that there is only one God, and Catholics, measuring by the light of Christian revelation, regard that as a step in the right direction. It doesn’t bother me that Muslims call the One God “Allah” (which is Arabic for God) anymore than my Mexican friends at church call God “Dios Padre”. (It does bother me that several groups of Muslims have exhibited a disturbing tendency to blow up people they disagree with.) “Allah” is simply God’s name in another language. No other deity is being named; I would venture to say that Muslims do not intend to name another deity, because they believe (as we do) that there is none. That said, I do not accept Islam’s view of God as an implacable judge who demands the immediate murder of all unbelievers. Nor do I accept the tenets of Buddhism, which insist that I detach my self-concept from my God-given personality in search of some “higher wisdom” apart from who God made me to be. There’s no way that I’m “yoked to unbelievers” as a member of the Roman Catholic Church – except in the sense of the wheat and the tares (Matt. 13:24-30) – and that parable applies to the body of all baptized Christians. However, if the Lucis Trust stumbled upon some true idea in the midst of their theosophical weirdness, it would not be wrong to say, “This one idea is true, and the rest is false.” Remember the old proverb: Even a clock that is stopped tells the correct time – but only twice a day.

As for your pop culture inquiries, all you have shown me is that the things of this world are far more important to you and these other folks, then God's Word, and commands. You stick to these things because they appeal to the flesh. Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. Modern horror does NOT teach the things of God {as an ex-horror fan, I could write an essay even on what sort of things Stephen King stands for...by the way his daughter is a UU minister.} If you are looking for salvation and the answers to life via The Corpse Bride, Alien, Freddy Vs. Jason, Stephen King, Dracula, Dawn of the Dead, The Hills Have Eyes and other worldly, occultic, satanic, evil movies, you will only be led into more and more error and the things of the world. Even the idea that you see horror movies as "Christian" tells me that you are extremely lost, and excusing these things so that you may continue indulging in them. I repented of this in my past and now with the Holy Spirit indwelling in me, am truly revolted by them as is every other true child of God.

So, I’m “extremely lost”, eh? I should let you know that I’m having trouble seeing the pathway to truth in the midst of your long, antagonizing screeds – but I suppose that means I’m “blind” as well. *Sigh.

I’m getting tired, so my responses are getting shorter:

First, contrast James 4:4 with John 3:16: “For God so loved the world…” God loved the world enough to send Jesus Christ to die for us. Whether you feel you have to love it or hate it, it all depends on how you define “world” - and my comments above will have to suffice on that.

I am in no way “looking for salvation” through horror films. I believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior; how many times and in how many ways do I have to say that before you believe me? I actually agree in the main with your statement that modern horror films often don’t reflect a Christian conception of the moral universe – it’s the classic horror genre (Dracula, Frankenstein, the Mummy, the Wolfman) that depicts more accurately the battle between good and evil. However, some modern horror films do in fact tell stories of heroic battles and victories over evil – The Exorcism of Emily Rose being one. I reject the idea that this whole genre of pop culture should be off limits to the “true child of God” because conversations about the questions it raises do in fact yield good spiritual fruit, and this is precisely why I enjoy and support Cornerstone Festival’s Imaginarium lecture series.

In closing, here are some more Scripture verses for you (not that I think we’ll get anywhere with prooftexting):

Matt. 7:1-2: "Stop judging, that you may not be judged. For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you.”

Psalm 37:8: “Give up your anger, abandon your wrath; do not be provoked; it brings only harm.”

James 1:20: “The wrath of a man does not accomplish the righteousness of God.”

I John 4:20-21: “If anyone says, ‘I love God,’ but hates his brother, he is a liar; for whoever does not love a brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. This is the commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.”

And with that, I’m done with this. Wilma, I’m sorry, but I’m not going to continue this exchange; I think its profitability is about spent for both of us. I sincerely wish you God’s blessings on your way.

4 comments:

Anonymous said...

Response by Wilma Tyndale:


I recognize that you’re not alone. I will definitely concede the point that catechesis (at least since the 1970s or so) in American Catholic churches has been extremely poor as far as connecting Catholics with the faith of our fathers.

The Catholic church's problems go far deeper then 'poor' catechisis, some hippy guitar playing nuns of the 70's, kids flunking religion class or not being able to list three of the Pope's encyclicals. It is a lack of the Holy Spirit and lack of the life-changing gospel.

People can memorize everything there is to know but this will provide absolutely no buffer if there hasnt been an inner spiritual change.


Vatican II were implemented in this country, the growing wedge of distrust between the American hierarchy and the official magisterium (i.e., the teaching office of the Church) begun by the American bishops’ refusal to enforce the directives of Humanae Vitae (prohibiting artificial birth control – published in 1968) , and the “sexual revolution” and general social upheaval of the late ‘60s and into the ‘70s all combined to create a “perfect storm” of sorts – in which many priests, nuns, catechists, and laypeople have been caught up.

Why should the Magisterium be trusted? If they can't be trusted to protect young people from homosexual ebophiles or show any moral credibility, why should they be listened to regarding anything else? People more and more have realized they are most interested in their own power and prestige.

Many Catholic clergy were a part of the general social upheaval's of the 60's and 70's with one example being liberation theology.


I don’t deny that many American Catholics don’t know Jesus and don’t live their faith.

Why blame them and not the system? Why give the Catholic clergy, Popes, Magisterium and false teachings total clearance and a free check for the decline of the Roman Catholic system? I always hear the term Pope John Paul II the GREAT, the same guy who fiddled while Rome burned and never went to go meet one sex abuse victim.

The system the poor Catholic people are in loads them up with man-made traditions, Phariseeical burdens and confusion galore. With promotions of the United Nations, illegal immigration, and conflicting teachings everywhere they turn, so wonder the average Catholic is confused. Who can blame them? If 12 years of Catholic schooling doesnt do the job anymore what will? For people to become Christians in the book of Acts it didnt take 6 months of RCIA, it took preaching of the gospel.

Instead of being given the life changing simple gospel they are given a works-based system that in today's modern world with its legends for peasants, Marian apparitions in trees, bad politics and focus on rituals in place of truth, simply does not stand up today's world. The Catholic remains as confused and as distant from God as ever. This isn't to say that Protestantism doesnt have problems with its own departures from the Word of God, but all churches that have departed from Gods Word and the commandments of Christ, are on a downward spiral.

I know you see me as this horrible "anti-Catholic", but I praise God everyday I had Christians who preached the gospel to me, because I certainly never heard it in the Catholic church.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/how_to_be_saved.html


I contend, however, that this is due to their rebellion against the true teachings of the Church as promulgated by the magisterium and not to their embrace of it.

To be honest with you, I hate how Catholic apologists patronize their fellow Catholics, "oh these rebellious people!". I see them as a victims of a system {and I was certainly one too} that has left them starving and lacking for spiritual nourishment, so wonder they have fallen. Why do Catholic apologists always give the clergy and Magisterium a free pass? The clergy you claim is infallible has failed you all across the board. You think more blind obedience given to the wolves in silken sheep's clothing is going to solve your church's problems? I think Catholics need to turn to God, and do what the apostles taught..

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.


I’ll take your comments in reverse order: 3) Yes, I’ve also noticed the fascination with the Catholic Church in horror films as well as other genres of books, cinema, and television. The reason is that the Catholic Church looms quite large in the Western imagination – it’s the most “churchy” thing out there.

It has nothing to do with being churchy. They need the GOTHIC atmosphere, the "spookiness" as it were for the Horror movie. Even unbelievers sense that there is darkness to Catholic church.

God can and does do miracles with whatever He chooses. The early Christians attest to the miracles mentioned above. Your quarrel is with them, not with me.

No, Rome's focus on dead body parts is idolatry that takes people's eyes off of God. Any true saint would be horrified to have people paying attention to their dead FLESH, then to God.


In your interpretation of II Cor. 6:15, you are assuming that “Belial” and “the infidel” is synonymous with every single person, culture, and artifact on the planet that does not worship God, pray, and read the Bible exactly as you do. Catholics do not interpret this passage this way.


What false religion does Rome warn about? With the exception of Satanists, what religion does Rome cut from its interfaith shindigs? As I've mentioned already even the demonic worshipping Vooduns who seek after out and out spiritual possession {by loas} in their religious ceremonies are fully welcomed! I dont expect everyone in heaven to be a Baptist but I do believe they have to be a Christian and born again, else you have turned Christianity simply into a "nice lifestyle option" instead of the truth? Why not go become a Wiccan or a Bahai'? It is interesting to me how Catholics DEFEND false religions as you now end up doing here in your defense of "interreligious dialogue". One just has to read Genesis to know that many of the worlds false religions {like Buddhism and Hinduism} are based on the lies of the garden--ie Satan's deceptions.

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

This view of world religions as all nice and wonderful philosophies where everyone is seeking after God even if they dont understand him totally, and as one happy family, is one reason Catholicism has LOST the Christian plot majorly. The Bible speaks of CHILDREN of DEVIL. Like it or not, false religions have been manufactured direct hell. That may sound harsh and judgemental to you, but it is the truth. {as an ex-UU I had more then my share of exposure to the teachings, rituals and readings that false religions in the world have to offer} The people are victims of Satan's lies. They can be saved in Jesus Christ too, but Rome cheats them out of the gospel to play global patty-cake and "fornicate" with kings..{Read Revelation 17&18}

Again, because of our view that the Fall did not destroy, but rather wounded, the image of God in humankind, there are some things in human cultures that are simply human, that retain some salvageable goodness, and they’re not all automatically consigned to the realm of the satanic.

Answer this question, does God mix truth with lies or isn't that more the domain of the other guy?

Again Rome insistence on goodness in false religions has just led to extreme moral relativism, and you're suprised that so many Catholics have fallen away? Why should they even be Catholics if other religions provide a pathway to heaven? If their own leaders see "treasures in other religions" what is there to stop the young 20 something from going to "explore"? Everything is so watered down, the siren call of the modern world wins hands down...Without the armor of Gods Word, Catholic people are in trouble!

Right here is what your church is missing, and why it is having so many problems.

Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:


Im going to repeat a section, the SWORD OF THE SPIRIT, WHICH IS THE WORD OF GOD.

and the Word of God does not preach these falsehoods, that truth lies in Buddha, Isis, Vishnu or that all religions are pathways, even if less direct to heaven.



It doesnt matter then. As I told you before the decline of Roman Catholicism is centered far more then in birth control pills and bad religion classes.

Sadly having studied endless Catholic interfaith events, most of the focus is on having the unbeliever pray to their false gods for peace, there have even been joint prayer sessions, such as a Buddhist-Catholic prayer service at Taj Mahoney. No time, have I ever seen any unbelievers being told that they need to be born again, or told the gospel or that they need Jesus Christ to be saved.



Also, the Bible says that one’s actions, based on the witness of one’s conscience, will either accuse or excuse a person on Judgment Day – whether or not that person has ever heard the Gospel (Romans 2:9-16). This is the key, though: If anyone is saved, it’s Jesus Christ that saves them. (Acts 4:12 - yes, absolutely.)

I already am familiar with Rome's ANONYMOUS "Christian" teaching, in fact having provided the Pope's quote per the above. The false jesus that saves everyone who is good according to their works, instead of the Jesus of Scripture and the life-changing gospel.


"Regarding the Assisi gatherings to pray for peace – come now, would you prefer that humans not ask whatever Higher Power they believe in for help in achieving peace on earth?

Yes I would perfer they not ask, whatever demon or false spirit they are praying to.

I know Allah [of Islam], Vishnu, Shiva, are NOT God. I am sorry you do not.

Would you prefer that we give up hope for a peaceful coexistence between different religions and cultures, and return to blowing each other up to the last man standing?

The only true peace is in Jesus Christ, it is not in the United Nations, NGOS, or Pope joining all the false religions of the world together. Rome is simply fulfilling its role in Biblical Prophecy.

Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

The Roman Catholic apologists over and over, tell me that all truth is to be sacrificed for world peace. You have merely repeated the same thing Ive heard everywhere else. This too is predicted in the Bible.

Verse speaking of the antichrist...

Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many:

You defend worldly peace, you do not defend the true peace that only Jesus Christ can bring.

Unless you can grasp the meaning of the difference between religious dialogue and syncretism, based on what I've already said, it won’t do much good for me to continue to try to explain it.

I do not believe in interreligious dialogue but exposing error and preaching the gospel, and considering that most Catholics are ever ready to call anyone a troll that merely disagrees with them or questions their religion or as you do in this exchange come to a very early wanting to end the exchange....Religious dialogue really means "Sit down and listen"!.

Why else would you be so upset with me that you want to end any further discussion? I have not personally insulted you, just disagreed openly with the teachings of your church.

Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

1) The yardstick for measuring Truth is held firmly in the Church’s hand. She does not accept other’s views as to what is good at face value, but judges by her own standards.

Yes the RCC tries to even put itself above God...

Does the phrase "Sit a queen" ring a bell?

God's truth will stand no matter what version of things the RCC seeks to promote.

Response by Wilma Tyndale:

Kathleen Lundquist said...

You know, Wilma - it's not that I don't want to talk to you anymore. It's that you don't want to talk to me.

You've been arguing not with me (a person), but with your own set of ideas about me - some ideas I agree with, some I don't - and you resolutely refuse to see the difference. And, you steadfastly refuse to agree on anything we have in common - which, despite your protests, is a fair amount.

You insult me by your use of pejorative adjectives and your sarcastic and patronizing tone, and then pretend you haven't. You seem to accept my apologies in my attempt to keep our exchange civil, and then you continue to accuse me of things I'm not guilty of. It's obvious that you don't see me as a person, but as a "Catholic - one of Them" - a soul to be saved, perhaps, but not worthy of respectful address or polite treatment, like "one of Us" would be.

For the record, I'm no "Catholic apologist"; I have no training except the books I've read, and I definitely "throw like a girl" in this regard. I don't have that thick skin that folks like Mark Shea, Karl Keating, and Jimmy Akin have - and so, since you insist on me divorcing my feelings as a human from our exchange, I have to say - no thanks. 'Bye.

Wilma Tyndale said...

Kathleen, claiming I have personally insulted you for disagreeing with your church, is a weak answer. I reread through my post, and there wasn't one personal attack or insult made against you, just disagreements about the teachings and actions of your church.


From the list of the Techniques of Catholic Apologists:


* 3: Accusation of hate technique


Insist vehemently that your opponent is full of hate.
It is always advisable to paint your opponent as hateful.
This technique should always contain a reference,
to your extreme caringness and the limitless bounds of your great humility.


It is odd to me how Catholics {both amateur and professional apologists} have adopted the techniques of extreme militant liberals who scream HOMOPHOBE to every person that dares to publically disagree with homosexuality.

I suppose it is an easy and convienient way to shut someone down when you don't like what they have to say and claim victimhood. Talk about ignoring the personhood of someone and ignoring what they are saying.

Yes, you are a soul to be saved. Sorry if that insults you but I was once where you are at now--even beyond when I was UU. I was fortunate a Christian dared to tell me the truth without sticking to the PC speech code. It's not like you walked into this blind, thinking I was going to play the ecumenical game with you.

From your other writings, I actually expected more of you then this running for the exit door, screaming HATER, BIGOT!

Honestly I thought you were made of better stuff then this reading your other writings.

Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Brian said...

Ironic that Wilma quoted St. Paul's words to the Galatians because it would appear that you have become her enemy for telling her the truth.